Various - FabricLive.31: The Glimmers

Fabric: 2006

*cover art brought to you by FabricLive's “ARTIST IN BIG FUCKING LETTERS” period*

The FabricLive series features quite a few acts I’m very familiar with. Due to the proliferation of breaks and jungle DJs, I’ve probably seen a good third of them, those scenes holding strong in various spots of the backdoors of British Columbia, especially so the Shambhala Music Festival. The 'party-in-the-mountains' boasts a vibrant jungle and breaks contingent, and were even early adopters of dubstep when that genre had barely begun its exodus from the UK. Plump DJs, Adam Freeland, Freestylers, Stanton Warriors, Diplo, Andy C, DJ Craze, A-Trak, Drop The Lime, and even all the way up to the latest (lambasted) FabricLive contributors Jack Beats, I’ve had the chance to check out live.

Then there’s a duo like The Glimmers. I’d never heard of these guys before, and upon reading their bio, I feel right stupid for not knowing them. Formerly the Glimmer Twins (re: Mick Jagger and Keith Richards nicknames), David Fouquaert and Mo Becha picked up the DJ trade nearly thirty years ago, playing out at Belgium clubs before raves were even a glint in the UK’s dilated eyes. Their accomplishments were relatively humble throughout the ‘90s, never seeking the spotlight but always in the mix of things within clubland, offering a funky, soulful alternative to rave’s blistering energy or eurodance’s camp. As their tracklists often contained unsung ‘80s hip-hop, rare dub reggae, and ‘70s French disco, some PR guy must have noticed how marketable such proper retro vibes were once such ‘anything goes’ mixtapey mixes grew in popularity at the turn of the century. Suddenly The Glimmers were releasing singles, LPs, DJ mixes (including one for DJ-Kicks a year prior to FabricLive.31 - how did I miss these guys!?), and receiving plenty of deserving spotlight.

Unsurprisingly for a duo influenced by the early days disco and glam, their set runs through plenty of tunes from names recognizable (Roxy Music, Freddie Mercury, Howie B.) to wacky obscure (Arpadys); from upfront disco funk (LCD Soundsystem Disco Infiltrator, their own Kobe’s In Columbia) to ancient oddities (psych-rock fuzz jam Pierre Henry); and we can’t forget those curious trainspotter’s classics either (George Kranz’ Din Daa Daa, The League Unlimited Orchestra’s Things That Dreams Are Made Of).

With all these eclectic tunes and genres, why The Glimmers must be DJ gods to make it all flow smoothly together! Ah, no, not really. Well over half these tracks are pre-‘90s, and as any DJ worth their needles will tell you, beatmatching records from those days is nothing but headaches. Instead, we get quick crossfades, intermittent ka-lumping phrasing, and songs that outright end with a half-breath of space before the next start. There’s just no simple way of segueing disco punk into reggae dub, is there.

Was This Worth The Pennies Paid For It?
I’m a sucker for mixtape sets unearthing the past as The Glimmers do here. Chalk up another steal for the money spent.

Various - fabric 31: Marco Carola

Fabric: 2006

*cover art brought to you by fabric’s “Tacky Fifties Family Photos” period*

Seeing Marco Carola’s name among all these cheap fabrics gave me a sense of familiarity I couldn’t place for the longest time. You know that feeling, where you just recognize something from somewhere, but only in passing, so you never give it much thought. Mr. Carola kicked that sentiment into high-gear, such that I was looking forward to hearing his mix. It had to be treated properly too, with no background checks that might create preconceived notions or hints of why he seemed so familiar. I’d figure it out as soon as I hit “Play” on my DVD/CD machine, a succulent, solvable mystery guided by music.

Minimal music. Eeeehhh…………

Almost within the first minute of opener Io from Matt John, I remembered. Those flat rhythms, gimmicky echoes on hi-hats, spacious sound design, bleepy bits and dry sterility… he’s been billed with Loco Dice a bunch, hasn’t he. No, more than that, he’d even signed to Hawtin’s M_nus, lock-stepping into the label’s brand of formless minimal techno. And fabric 31’s from late 2006, so it’s gonna be one of those minimal techno mixes, isn’t it.

Yeah. I had some early hopes it wouldn’t turn into the monotonous gob that rendered so much techno unlistenable during this era, as Marco offers some decent groove with the first few tracks. In fact, Gabriel Ananda’s remix of Marek Bois’ You Got Good Ash is damn near funky, in that low grumbling, bassy way tech-house can go. Following it with an actual stomper (Fusiphorm’s I Am… You!), and you’d be convinced too that minimal was good music.

But nay, the set goes into dull, plodding, plonky, effects wank right after, and pretty much stays there for the duration. How dare you think minimal techno could be funky and fun. What’s that, you like melody? AH-hahaah! You naive nonce, this are serious minimal techno. Go listen to drone ambient if you want melody. Instead, marvel at rhythms that encourage a slight shoulder shuffle, and fuck anything else. There’s occasional teases that we might get something better (an actual melody emerges in Ernie’s Escarabajos near the end), but don’t get comfortable, as Marco takes everything back to square, tedious base level with each track.

As it turns out, Caralo’s generated a share of flack in recent years for his chosen sound, and at first I thought that was where I’d heard his name before - a typical namedrop of minimal’s worst tendencies once the backlash began in earnest. After digging into his discography a little deeper though, the final piece clicked. He’d been one of Italy’s prime providers of tough, bangin’ techno at the turn of the century, a veritable leader of that kick-ass scene. Knowing his awesome roots makes fabric 31, his debut DJ mix CD no less, even more wretched - a blatant bandwagon jump that offers nothing of lasting substance in return.

Was This Worth The Pennies Paid For It?
Fuck no.

Various - fabric 30: Rub-N-Tug

Fabric: 2006

*cover art brought to you by fabric’s “Lensed Deformity Photography” period*

Either I'm getting ridiculously lucky in this year's “Fabric On A Budget” venture, or some folks out there just don't have good taste. Why would anyone want rid of a mix CD as good as this one? For sure a DJ duo fancying them Rub-N-Tug doesn't bode well for those judging acts by name alone – it sounds like some tacky massage parlour in New York City's seedier neighbourhoods. Eh, what's that about them? Oh.

Rub-N-Tug is Thomas Bullock and Eric Duncan, two New Yorkers who played the after party circuit for a number of years during the region's post-Giuliani nightlife recession. This primarily meant small enclaves and lofts above massage parlours, earning their gigs the reputation of being ultra-hip and only for those in-the-know. It also helped if you were up for an 'anything house goes' vibe, the duo simply having fun playing vinyl favorites without much care for super-technical proficiency or journey set construction; good ol' unpredictability, then. They also keep the groove relatively on the slower side, though never crossing into downtempo territory, the sort of rhythm that moves bodies without wearing folks out or pissing off the neighbours living underneath.

Since the afterhours vibe is Rub-N-Tug’s game, making a mix CD for home listening isn’t much of a stretch for ‘em. I’m surprised Lord Discogs lists fabric 30 as their first one, American DJs often needing a couple releases under their belt before a UK label comes a-knockin’ – maybe a Fabric promoter went to one of their after-parties. The names on here run the gamut from familiar (Röyksopp, Claude VonStroke, Ewan Pearson, Âme, Marshall Jefferson, Black Strobe, Serge Santiago, Satoshi Tomiie) to obscure (Nemesi, Rufass, Foolish & Sly, Unknown Artist). Even judging by those recognizable acts, one can tell we’re dealing with an eclectic collection of tunes. House (both deep and tech, but thankfully not deep-tech), disco funk, a touch of the disco punk (it is New York City, after all), and smattering of space-synthy electro-house (ooh, Discopolis from Lifelike & Kris Menace is one fun little anthem at the end).

As a technical set, fabric 30’s unimpressive, most mixes functional and Rub-N-Tug forgoing any sort of journey for long. Of course, that’s how most afterhours mixes play out anyway, DJs free to rinse out records as they see fit. Bullock and Duncan deserve credit, then, for keeping fabric 30 as tightly flowing as they do, considering they aimed at capturing their post-party vibe in but sixteen tracks. The twists they do throw in serve as spice for an already smooth-tasting mix.

Was This Worth The Pennies Paid For It?
How could it not? Simmering funk, earwormy synths, deep grooves, and soul to spare. It’s a near-perfect cocktail of post-clubbing house music that never falls prey to insipid deep house clichés or vapid chill-out banality. I guess you could say fabric 30 rubbed... and tugged me in all the right ways! (eh? eh? ...*sigh*)

Various - fabric 21: DJ Heather

Fabric: 2005

*cover art brought to you by fabric's “Negative Suburban Life” period*

Is DJ Heather the first female entrant in either of Fabric's series? *backchecks* Huh, sure looks like it. That's surprising, taking so long for a member of the fairer sex to finally get the nod. I know the male-to-female DJ ratio is wildly out of whack, but surely Fabric could have offered it to someone sooner. Aside from those ladies who did get fabrics later (Ellen Allien, Magda), there's... um, hmm.

Annie Mac possibly could have done a FabricLive before, but her career only truly took off shortly after this. For a bold option, Mary Anne Hobbs might have worked, but few knew what to make of dubstep at this point in FabricLive’s lifetime. As for the main series, for sure fabric wouldn't bother with hard house gals like DJ Irene or the Tidy Girls, nor prog-leaning dames like Sandra Collins. Uh, help me out here, UK: were there any notable female DJs that could have broken the Fabric gender barrier earlier? I mean, it doesn't look good on your part that they turned to a Chicago resident when they finally did.

Not that Ms. Robinson isn't deserving of such an accolade, having already earned her house-rinsing stripes in the good ol' U.S. Of A. Her birth land may be the East Coast, but her sound bumps West Coast, often held in standing with another Chicago transplant, Mark Farina. Shortly after releasing fabric 21, she signed with San Francisco label OM Records, a label any sort of proper house-head should be familiar with. Sunny, jazzy sounds on the deeper side of house dominate their roster, and DJ Heather’s no exception.

It’s funny that much of the music on fabric 21 was what many considered deep house around the time, the San Francisco sound so influential abroad. That would change within a year thanks to the Germans, perhaps due to a desire for something fresher sounding than the usual funky American soul. I’ve said plenty before finding house mix CDs of this sort wasn’t difficult, and DJ Heather’s contribution to this cliché keeps it such. The music’s perfectly fine, at times on the dubby side (Marko Militano’s Good People; D’Julz’ Ze Theme; 2-Utes’ Bumpin The BQE),other times raiding disco funk vibes (Kaskade’s Steppin’ Out, with Members Only providing an Akufen-styled rub; both Mike Delgado cuts), and elsewhere taking either the jazzy road (DJ Rhythm’s Brazilian Soul; Mario Fabriani’s Release) or acid path (Maxx Renn’s Acid Jack). It’s a set that doesn’t stray far from familiar territory, but with scenery this fun and funky, who really cares.

Was This Worth The Pennies Paid For It?
Can’t fault the music at this bargain price, what with most House Of OM CDs still commanding a fair dollar even on the used market. fabric dips its hands into the San-Fran well every so often, so DJ Heather’s contribution isn’t entirely unique for the series. Aside from that whole “First Female DJ” bit, anyway.

Various - fabric 20: John Digweed

Fabric: 2005

*cover art brought to you by fabric's “Negative Suburban Life” period*

Released during Digweed's mid-’00 'wandering' years, fabric 20 isn't as odd an entry as most figured. Maybe that the club would offer their twentieth edition to a prog DJ turned a few heads, but it’s not like ol' John was a stranger to the club. Just about every jock with some tech-house pedigree has played at Fabric at some point in their career, and Digweed's crates run deep with house music of all sorts. Check out his Choice compilation of the same year if you need proof of his eclectic progressive pudding.

Truth is few survive as a top-tier DJ without some adaptability, musical fads incredibly fickle as years wear on. If you’re really damn good at the game, you can dictate how those trends will shift, as Digweed did when he convinced many progressive house was dead, so here’s ‘prog’ instead. Before finally settling on Transitions as his next move, he got to showcase his flexibility on fabric 20, essentially accommodating his skill for set construction into a mix filled with tunes the traditional Fabric audience could appreciate.

Make no mistake, the fabric series built its early reputation as an outlet for house-heads who’d grown weary of prog’s dominance on the DJ mix CD market. Crafty ol’ John definitely knew his audience, then, as there’s hardly any of the sort in this mix. Even the first track, 16B’s mix of Pete Moss’ Strive To Live, has more in common with ambient techno than progressive house; plus, it’s a great track to overlay on Adam Johnson’s Traber, a techno producer that prog DJs adored at the time. Third track Forgive & Forget from Repairs and Richard Davis on the rub is about as proggy as fabric 20 goes, what with its dubby, chuggy beat and soft vocals overtop. Then we’re off to the uncharted realms of ‘other’-house, as far as Digweed’s traditional fanbase was concerned.

There’s disco punk licks (Glass’ Won’t Bother Me (20:20 Soundsystem Instrumental)), bumpin’ funky kicks (Martin Solveig’s Rocking Music), Belgian acid throwback (Billy Dalessandro’s In The Dark), contemporary electro acid (Slam’s Lie To Me (Freestyleman Thirsty Monk Dub)), floaty electro-tech (Superpitcher’s Happiness (Michael Mayer Mix)), and chugging tribal (Joel Mull’s Emico), though this is a sound Digweed’s worked into his sets plenty of times; cool seeing it from another techno guy though. All of which, of course, arranged so you have that vintage progressive house set flow: early lead, mid-set peak, slight dip for tune showcase, strong finish.

Was This Worth The Pennies Paid For It?
If you’re a Digweed completist, definitely - the guy’s got a lot of mix CDs, and saving money’s always a solid option. As a fabric disc, it’s one of the more unique ones out there, in that it takes a road hardly traveled before or since; the tunes fit the series, the arrangement doesn’t. Still, I’d take this over dry minimal-tech mixes any day. Most worth it, then.

EDM Weekly World News: May 2014

In conjunction with Ishkur.com (re: I've been helping with these for the last few years), it's the EDM Weekly World News, now also available on Electronic Music Critic. The EDMWWN rag is your first, second, and third stop for all the sensational sensationalism of EDM's most sensationalicious gossip!

Back issues available upon request.

Various - FabricLive 08: Plump DJs

Fabric: 2002

*cover art brought to you by FabricLive’s “Urban Silhouettes” period*

Despite residing within a breaks scene that faded into near-irrelevancy as the ‘00s wore on, Plump DJs’ stock never fell. That’s what happens when you almost single-handedly dictate the way a genre goes forward, in this case nu-skool breaks. Sure, plenty of other names could be dropped that were just as influential (must… resist…), but Misters Gardner and Rous always remained one step ahead in the production game, tracks just that bit more polished and class compared to their peers. Small wonder, then, that Fabric would tap the breaks duo for one of their early editions of FabricLive, pretty much the first outside breaks act receiving the honor (Ali B was already a resident at Fabric). On the other hand, they had to follow up John Peel’s mix, an almost thankless task in measuring up to his eclectic variety of music.

Just as well they didn’t try – they had their own Fabric quarterly to promote, after all. And a new album soon (Eargasm). Plus that whole Wipeout: Fusion tie-in (one track and two remixes!). Also at least five of their own productions for this mix. Goodness, are Plump DJs ever savvy business men. Well, maybe not so much with that entry into the dying Global Underground series. Whatever, they command top billing everywhere they play out, a couple missteps along the way can’t hurt. Please tell me the stupid-as-shit ‘anthem house’ track Skylon isn’t indicative of their current sound… (*dong-dong-dong-dong, dong-dong-dong-dong dong*)

FabricLive 08 isn’t too surprising of a set if you know your breaks from 2003. There’s nods to the old school like Nation 12’s Listen To The Drummer (from ’91), plus a couple cheeky mash-ups of their own tracks with tunes of yore, including Screen 2’s garage house retro-hit Hey Mr. DJ (the Plump’s rub of Mr. Velcro Fastener’s Electrical Appliances serves the rhythmic backbone), and Punch Drunk cut with Donna Summer’s I Feel Love to end the set. That might be a little cliché (who doesn’t mash Summer with something?), but at least they used their own track for the gimmick.

Aside from that, we’re mostly in funky territory. If you must know the requisite deviations, here we go: a little chemical-acid stylee in Angelfish, their collaboration with Ali B; electro gets its nod on Chad Jackson’s Energise (a former DMC champion, no less); Evil Nine offers us something more space-based with Cakehole; and Soul Of Man comes strong with the tribal business on The Drum. Still, I couldn’t help but keep expecting Big Groovy Fucker to show up. It’s as though Plump DJs curates a very specific sound of their own (not the first person to realize this).

Was This Worth The Pennies Paid For It?
Yeah, I’d say so. If you’re a fan of breaks and somehow missed out on Plump DJs in their prime, FabricLive 08’s a decent starting point, though the Urban Underground mini-series earned them more attention than this one.

Various - fabric 08: Radioactive Man

Fabric: 2002

*cover art brought to you by Fabric’s “Future Technology In Cottage Climate” period*

While it’s rare fabric covers have anything to do with the featured DJ, it can’t be a coincidence a radio dish is on the cover for Radioactive Man’s contribution to the series. Yeah, I know, Keith Tenniswood’s alias has nothing to do with actual radio transmissions, but it’s a nice bit of cover continuity for a series almost devoid of such.

The man behind Man is part of a circle of London producers that every critic worth their salt frequently slobbers over, including respected names like Andrew Weatherall, James Lavelle, and David Holmes. Mr. Tenniswood was the electro-IDM chap, a sort of British option for those who dug Anthony Rother and Aux 88. No surprise, then, his offering of fabric 08 is primarily an electro affair. Wait, hold the cell-phone! Breakbeats, in the main series? What an uncertain time these early fabrics were – daring, bold, unsettled within trends.

Well, not quite. This being 2003, electro clashcoresynth was still a hot sound. Radioactive Man skews closer to the proper realms of robot-funk, but he isn’t resistant to that action either. At least he had the good sense to use his 2 Lone Swordsmen (with Weatherall) guise as the ease-in point for the sound. Dot Allison never sounded so seductively sleazy! Following it with the hopelessly obscure Touch Me from Sweetie though? Aw, now you’re just showing off your crates, mate. No, also fitting in another Weatherall collaboration with Explode as the one-off Basic Unit doesn’t count as digging. Sounds like you’re trying to get in on that International Deejay Gigolo action anyway.

After that, it’s mostly a pure electro workout, save a brief detour into nu-skool breaks care of Koma + Bones’ Powercut. Ah, it’s not far removed from Tenniswood’s take on electro anyway, so it’s all good. Also good are cuts from Imatran Voima (mmm, In/Out’s some fine robot music, ‘tis), Anthony Rother (because of course), charming electro synth-poppers Kit Builders (Bolz Bolz providing the rub on Wake Up), and a cheeky mash-up of Princess Superstar’s hot-as-Hell Fuck Me On The Dancefloor overtop ravey electro Rottenrow from Dirty Hospital.

Radioactive Man also gets a track of his own in twice with ’Ave That, a total head scratcher. It’s… electro speed garage? Oh dear. And then Tim Wright’s remix takes it down 2-step’s road right after. I …guess this is cool in the UK? Or a joke on Tenniswood’s part? The latter wouldn’t surprise me, given he uses a made-up comic book character within a cartoon for this alias.

Was This Worth The Pennies Paid For It?
Absolutely. Tenniswood’s career hasn’t led him into the DJ studio often, but he capably handles himself here with good set flow and a varied selection of tunes without straying far from his chosen sound of expertise (though speed garage, really!?). Plus, how often do we get to hear proper electro in a fabric mix? Not often enough, says I.

Toto - Dune (Original Soundtrack)

Polydor: 1984

Even as a kid, I had a handle on most sci-fi movies of the '80s. Star Wars and Star Trek, ain't no th'ang. Higher concept movies like 2010 and The Terminator? Perfectly fine. Dune? Uh... what's going on? A bunch of talky-talk by faux-European space-cultures, plus a slug in a giant, gassy tube. And hey, Captain Picard's in this too! That's awesome! Then people go to Dune, some more stuff happens, a cool sequence with a giant worm goes down, a battle against guys with weird outfits and Sting happens, and oh man I haven't a clue anymore.

Turns out my confuddlement over Dune wasn't just youthful naivety. When I sat down to watch the flick beginning to end as an adult, it still didn't make much sense, though I could at least appreciate the visual design. Costumes, sights, sets, and more from the movie became fixtures in not only geek culture, but even the rave scene, dialog samplers frequently raiding Dune for quotables. Whatever faults the movie had on a narrative level, you couldn’t deny its enduring style.

Same can be said for Toto’s soundtrack. Bringing on the prog-rock conglomerate to score a sci-fi epic sounds utterly daft, but that’s par for the course for director David Lynch. The group didn’t let him down either, the Main Title theme’s epic, soaring sombre strings one of sci-fi’s most recognizable leitmotifs. Elsewhere, the mysterious Trip To Arrakis perfectly captures the eerie surreal setting of spice-based ‘folding space’ travel, while the gentle Paul Meets Chani’s a lovely romantic theme that’s sadly squandered on a barely existent plot thread. And speaking of squandered music, I can’t be the only one that’s disappointed in the shortened Big Battle piece, an exhilarating and triumphant marching reiteration of the Main Title that classically camps out at the climax with operatic choirs and squalling guitars.

Toto being a rock group though, they had to worm in some standards too. Take My Hand sounds way fucking ‘80s, but not so bad as Dune (Desert Theme), where I picture the likes of Yanni in the studio rather than Toto. I suppose Take My Hand is fine for a credit roll (where even characters that barely had two scenes and served no purpose got their mug shot in over rolling sea waves ...wait, why’s there an ocean at the end of a movie called Dune? I’m confuddled again), but Desert Theme doesn’t fit anywhere in the context of this CD. Yes, including one where the clanking Robot Fight mixes in from the Main Title.

Whatever. We all know the true highlight of Dune doesn’t even involve Toto; rather, it’s the Eno-Lanois-Eno piece Prophecy Theme. Rumour has it Brian Eno had done an unofficial score too, this haunting bit of lush ambience the only remaining evidence of such. One can only imagine how that would have turned out, though I suspect Eno being Eno, we wouldn’t have quite as many classic musical cues as Toto provided. Grace in subtlety, right?

Stylophonic - Beatbox Show

Universal Music: 2006

Maybe I should have trusted the apathy. How could I have known, though? Despite receiving all the critical plaudits for Man Music Technology, folks generally passed by Stylophonic's first album. A few years later, ol' Stefano comes out with his sophomore offering, Beatbox Show, which seemingly everyone, including critics, passed by. Hell, I never knew of it until checking back at Lord Discogs when it came time to write the MMT review, and Stylophonic's sound won me over enough to at least keep tabs on the project. Lack of promotional power likely hurt Beatbox Show's reach, only getting a release through Universal Music in Mr. Fontana's native Italy. I wonder why Prolifica dropped him, or did he only have a one-album deal with them?

Not that it should matter who he signed to, as a great LP typically gets global recognition regardless. While it wouldn’t surprise me folks currently reading this are only now discovering Beatbox Show exists, I sadly suspect this is more than when the album first came out. If it did receive any attention, it mustn’t have been good, practically disappearing from public discourse shortly after along with most of Stefano’s career, save a few synth-pop production credits.

So the warning signs were all there that Beatbox Show would turn out a ‘shitshow’ (oh-hoho!). Maybe I should have dug around the YouTubes first, taking in a couple tracks as a sampler, hear if it was worth digging about for a proper copy. Nah, Sykonee don’t play that way, especially with ample spending cash for music these days. I went to the Amazons instead, paying whatever (< $30) prices I could find, and shipping it on over for a blind-purchase listen. It’s how I got Man Music Technology, and that turned out swimmingly! Mr. Fontana’s too talented a producer for this to turn out horrible, right?

No, wait, this was released in 2006, when everyone with a hint of electro in their sound was obligated to jump onto the post-electroclash sleaze bandwagon. It’s not a good fit for Stylophonic’s upbeat, campy charm. Every time Stefano works in those cliché scratchy, farty synths (Dancefloor, Daisyphonic, Turntable Times), it sounds hopelessly forced; a blatant attempt at co-opting Benassi’s success. Having equally forced ‘trashy’ sing-rap lyrics from ‘Dirty Kylie’ throughout doesn’t help either, her attempts at aping Peaches woefully forgettable. She’s fine when simply singing (Say What?, Losing My Mind), but as this is her only Discogs credit, I suspect she’s a studio hire forced into an unfitting role.

When Stylophonic gets back to the summery club-house vibes (Play That Music, Loving You At The Mad Club) or pays tribute to proper electro of the ‘80s (Say What?, Fresh Air), Beatbox Show retains the hooky appeal of Man Music Technology. Too often though, Stefano loses himself in drab ‘electro-trash rock’ nonsense that instantly dates this album to the mid-‘00s, vanishing within a sea of cheap Satisfaction clones. Not the end for Stylophonic I’d hoped, my friends. Not like this.